Inside Modular: The Podcast of Commercial Modular Construction
Inside Modular is the official podcast of the Modular Building Institute, the Voice of Commercial Modular Construction. This series will highlight industry news and trends, include conversations with industry thought-leaders, and discuss the advantages of modular building construction.
Inside Modular: The Podcast of Commercial Modular Construction
UnContained: How One Manufacturer is Helping to Change the Way Chicago Builds
Rory Rubin, founder and CEO of SI Container Builds, shares her journey from clinical social worker to modular construction innovator and discusses two of her company's groundbreaking container-based projects in Chicago. Rory explores how shipping container construction offers sustainable, cost-effective building solutions as she details her recent experiences navigating municipal approvals and changing perceptions about this innovative construction method.
Hello and welcome to Inside Modular, the podcast of commercial modular construction brought to you by the Modular Building Institute. Welcome everyone. My name is John McMullen. I'm the marketing director here at MBI. Today I'm joined by Rory Rubin, founder and CEO at SI Container Builds. Rory is here to talk about her company's latest container-based projects and how states, cities and municipalities can get started with their own container-based projects. Roy, welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi John.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. Tell me about yourself, roy, what's your background and what's the story behind SI Container Builds.
Speaker 2:Well, my background and the story are very mutually exclusive. They're very different. I started off as a clinical social worker. I did work within Alzheimer's disease research and in clinical practice, and so people are like, well, that's very weird, like how could you ever do what you're doing now, which is run a modular factory? And I said it's actually not that different because ultimately I'm working with people. So working with people kind of transfers from social work right to this business model.
Speaker 2:I started SI Container Builds about six and a half years ago because I really wanted to do something a little different in my career.
Speaker 2:I came from a family of architects and construction people and I always thought that was fabulous and cool and I wanted to live more sustainably. And ultimately I fell in love with the shipping container and I turned to my husband one day and I said you know what? Been a management consultant for a long time, I really want to start a business. And he thought it was a little crazy and he said, okay, let's just dig in and see where this takes us. And so six and a half years ago I founded SI Container Builds. And the SI actually stands for sustainable imprints, so people don't always know that. And then over the last three years, got into our factory here outside of the Chicago area so that we could start being scalable and doing things that were even more sustainable and eco-friendly inside the factory, and that kind of wound us up here and working with MBI and in you guys, and so it's been really a cool experience, a great journey.
Speaker 1:Well, that's awesome. I like that story. I think it takes a little bit of crazy to start a business, so good for you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I think it's still a little crazy. There's never a dull moment, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:So tell me about some of the projects you're working on now. You mentioned being around Chicago. I know you have a couple of larger scale container projects in and around Chicago. What are the stories behind those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really, really cool. So over the last year things have just kind of exploded and taken off in directions we could not have anticipated so literally, as I speak the second floor to the two-floor building that's going to go down to Navy Pier and whoever has been to Chicago knows Navy Pier, it's got the big Ferris wheel right downtown we are doing the first ever boaters amenity building that's going to be attached to the brand new marina down there that Navy Pier Marina Group is building as the developers. It's the first transient marina Chicago has ever seen. So the very first time in history, people are going to be able to enjoy downtown Chicago for an hour or a day or a week, where they never were able to do that by boat before.
Speaker 2:And so this building that we're building out of shipping containers is just under 3,000 square feet. It's all containers, it's going to have a ship store, it's going to have laundry and it's going to have bathrooms and showers and people lounge space for the boaters that are renting the slips, and so it's just this wonderful legacy project for right downtown Chicago. In the same breath, we are completely approved for a permit in hand, working with HODC and Shelter Inc to provide the very first group home for girls who've been trafficked in the suburbs of Chicago. It's going to be a 6400 square foot group home and girls as young as 12 years old that have not had a safe home to go to, that have come off the streets. They are now going to be supported in this house, and so we have two very cool, very different type of projects supporting community here in Chicago going on right now.
Speaker 1:What inspired the use of shipping containers for these projects? Was it the cost, the speed, the aesthetic or something else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you of all people understand modular, which is really, I mean, not everybody does so. From a speed perspective, the modular piece is why we have decided to utilize containers. We are brokering these containers from all over the country. We are very purpose-driven of what kind of containers we use, and actually I have a blog that helps people understand what they're picking out. When people say, oh, I can just build with a container, any old container, it's really not true.
Speaker 2:Since the early 2000s, containers had to go through a very rigorous process to even be able to come into this country and then to be able to repurpose legally has been in the ICC code since 2018. And so I fell in love with the ship container because I found out that there are more than 26 million of them sitting around because we do not ship them back, and so this is, in my opinion, an environmental crisis, and so at that point, I realized well, other countries have been doing this for decades. I do know there are people in the states that have been successfully doing this for a little while, but there's not a ton of people in the Midwest and certainly not in Illinois. Let's repurpose this and do something really great, and architects and engineers that come on board with us have truly been able to create wonderful spaces, built to code and doing it all correctly, right here in our factory. But I just wanted to do something and get these out of the container graveyards that they're all sitting in right now.
Speaker 1:How would you describe the design of these projects? How are these containers being tailored for these two very distinct uses?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, we are maybe a little bit different because everybody that work with us are licensed and certified, and so that means from our architects to our civil and structural engineers, all the people that are around us are creating a building structure, a building envelope, just using a steel frame, and so they look at the containers themselves as a steel frame, stackable like Legos, modular piece, and that they can create something pretty much anything you want. I mean, I've seen architects do just incredible things all over the world with these, and when you see the Navy Pier building and the Shelter Inc building, you'll see that they're very, very different. One has exposed container steel on the outside. One is completely cladded so that they love the structural integrity of the steel but they want it to blend into their community a little bit better, and so there's all kinds of uses for that. But ultimately it's done correctly so that the architects and engineers on board are pretty much the starting point of how we build with our clients.
Speaker 1:So walk me through the development process, you know, from initial concept to construction which is going on now. You know for one of these projects and you can pick what were the major milestones and who are the key players at each stage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's a little different, and yet it's similar to if you're doing anything on site, because we still have to follow the same kind of process. The advantage that we have is that we truly can build a lot faster. So in my factory we're building all year round. We don't have to deal with the weather that is outside. So when a client comes to us and specifically we work with a B2B environment, we are not working direct-to-consumer anymore, we work with a B2B environment. We are not working direct to consumer anymore. So we'll work with a developer or a nonprofit or a commercial entity and they'll come to us and say I need a concession stand or I need a yoga studio or I need a multifamily unit, and we'll sit with them and usually the developer that we've been working with has a good understanding of what they're trying to do and a performa that is maybe not complete because they need some numbers, but they have a general idea of the building, what it's going to look like, and so we'll sit with them, with our architects and engineers, and then we'll be able to get the numbers in. And they're coming to us for a couple of reasons. One is they love the sustainability factor of the containers, and that's really a great cool factor, but also the fact that we can build so much faster than if we build on site and we are typically saving between 8% to 10% on our bills, just in general, to a developer. So that's why they're coming to us and it just makes life a lot less complicated.
Speaker 2:So after the design is complete, we go through the same process as any other new construction. We are sitting down with municipalities so that everybody on their building team inspectors to the fire department they're all on board to what we're doing, because most of the time they've never seen this kind of construction before. So there's a lot of questions, a lot of education, and so we spend a lot of time with them around that. And then we go through the same permitting process that anybody else would have to go through and in my opinion I always say the building part is the easiest part. I can do that. I know exactly how much and how long that's going to take. It's the other pieces and parts that wind up getting in the way. That can often take a very long time.
Speaker 1:How did you first initiate your conversations with the city of Chicago or the state of Illinois for these projects? Was it a public call? Was it a pitch directly to you? How did that start?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, especially for Navy Pier, we really had a very tight timeline and when you work with any major city, you're always worried about what's going to happen and how many people are going to be needing to be a part of this decision-making process, and so, from that standpoint, the developer was involved.
Speaker 2:We had an expediter that was involved because we have such a tight timeline, but it was me reaching out directly to the building department and to all of Chicago's credit, and I really feel this way. People were responsive, people got on a call with us, people were excited and engaged, and so, when we were ready for rough inspection, they actually sent an entire task force of inspectors up to our factory, which I know that Chicago has done this in the past, but they don't typically leave the city proper, and so this was really awesome that they were doing this for us and people were excited and I saw a lot of hope in that, because I know that people struggle, just in general, with modular construction across the country. Not every city is that gracious about it, and so far Chicago really has been, and I give them that credit because I believe that this is going to be the first of a long-term relationship with the city.
Speaker 1:Well, that's very encouraging. That's awesome. What questions did they come with, or concerns, or what information did they need from you during that meeting and along the way to sort of get them on board with this project?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that none of the questions that they had were surprising. They were all extremely typical of what I get when I talk to any municipality, large or small. People are concerned with the container themselves. They think of it as a rusty old box. They think of it as having could it have had hazardous materials come over, like what do we do about stuff like that? They also are concerned with the concept of mold and mildew, because containers have a bad rap with that kind of piece and what do we do for all of that?
Speaker 2:And it's reassuring that the way we build and how we build and where we get things and how we sign off on things, and so that it's a comfort level for them, because things just really have changed in the last decade and not everybody realizes that there's still a lot of old mantra and a lot of old tape in people's heads and I understand that.
Speaker 2:And so it's getting them comfortable that we're not so weird and it's not so unique. And I think when the inspectors came here on the outside they could see this two-story container building because we actually built it out in our factory, completed, and then when they were inside they're like oh, the electric's exactly the same. The plumbing's the same, the spray foam's the same, the drywall's the same. This is not any different than any new construction, and so for them it was just a comfort level and it made a lot more sense. So I would imagine for next time it's not going to be so weird to say I'm doing a container multifamily building and this is what it's going to be. Okay, we get it, you're going to follow what we need you to follow and we'll see what we need to see, and that kind of communication was awesome.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the city's willingness to sort of step outside of the city limits and come give you a visit. Were there any particular champions? You know individuals or groups or departments within the city that helped move things forward?
Speaker 2:So I would say that there were probably a couple individuals I don't know if they would want me to say that we don't have to name names.
Speaker 2:In the building department. There were a couple of people that I was, you know, really great grateful for and a couple of commissioners that were really a part of the whole process, and I would say, overall, working with the city of Chicago was easier than sometimes a couple of the smaller municipalities that we've had to work with in Illinois. They were a little bit more difficult and really just had a mindset that anti-container and Chicago is a lot more open. Maybe the time has come that they realize we are not an only solution, but we are a solution to do things faster, a little less expensive and make things in the city really pretty, and so I'm really I was encouraged by that.
Speaker 2:You never know and you hear, you know big, big municipalities. You get lost in the shuffle, you get sidetracked. People don't want to listen. We had such a great experience so far that I really want to do kudos to the city of Chicago.
Speaker 1:So, based on these experiences that you've had, particularly with the city, what's the best starting point for a municipality interested in launching its first modular?
Speaker 2:or container-based project. How should they start? Yeah, to me I think, starting with A a phone conversation and B. Come to the factory, come visit. We're always open to do that kind of tour. So we've had a whole group of people in building departments for a single municipality come in, from a fire chief down to an inspector, to everyone in between, and honestly, that makes a big difference because once you can feel it and see it and touch it and they can wrap their heads around it, it's not such an unusual concept. So for me it's about communication. It's about working directly, one-on-one. So if a developer comes to us and says we have an idea but we're worried about it, my absolute next first step is calling the municipality directly and having that initial conversation with them so that we can engage them right away, so everybody can be a part of this team to make sure that you know people are, the comfort level is there.
Speaker 1:Now, from the municipality or governments, local governments point of view, what are the main advantages that modular and containers offer to them? You know, is it financials or logistical? Is it social? Is it all the above or are there? Did I miss anything?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's you. I think there's a few specifics. One is from a developer standpoint. Their ROI is certainly a lot faster. Meaning, I'm going to get you housing, and I don't know a single area in this country that is not desperate.
Speaker 2:We are in a housing crisis. Everybody understands that. I am a solution to the housing crisis when they can finally wrap their head around what this is, not being so unique and different, but I can do it a lot faster. It's a really cool, cool thing for me to be able to boast about. So, ultimately, that is something that's great Less expensive, a little bit less expensive, and being able to do it in the factory so people can come and see as it's being done. The site work can get done at the same time as the build process, and so we don't have to wait from one to the other. I mean, modular has been around for a long time. I know you know that. That's why there's the whole institute around that, but at the end of the day, I feel like there's just so much need for it still as a solution base to all kinds of things, housing included, that I can't talk about it enough. I'm sure you can't talk about it either.
Speaker 1:What's a flip side of that coin? What are some of the biggest obstacles and misunderstandings that public officials have when it comes to modular and container construction? If you had to boil it down to one or two things, I think there's a fear factor.
Speaker 2:I would say the fear of the unknown for people is what drives people to say no right away instead of digging in and seeing. It's not so different. I have the steel frame structure that I'm using. So if you really boil it down to the fact that it is just a core 10 steel frame and I know exactly what that steel frame is and it's engineered correctly and the architect does the plans correctly, it doesn't matter that it's a container. But then there's tax incentives that people can use to do things. That for the sustainability piece, because I'm recycling something that otherwise would not be recycling or recycled or repurposed, and so it's really just managing an old tape, an old dialogue in people's heads that it's not a rusty old box, that this is something that's built to code, that has been legally allowed to be repurposed for decades. And ultimately you know we are, we're doing things correctly, and so it's a communication.
Speaker 1:Have there been lessons learned from Chicago or the state of Illinois that could help other cities or states initiate projects similar to these?
Speaker 2:I hope so. I mean stay tuned right, like once we get these up and running and people can do walkthroughs and really appreciate and see the end result. I'm really hoping that the comfort level is shared. So when I do a presentation, I often add in pictures of like multifamily and other commercial builds that people have done and companies have done in other parts of the country and I can say I wish I made this up Like this is super unique. However, san Diego, los Angeles, nashville, north Carolina, new York places have done this and so when they see that and they can say, oh, you know, that's really cool and it's not so weird and unique. And maybe Chicago, there's room for us here and not just the city, but you know, all throughout the Chicago. There's room for us here and not just the city, but all throughout the state. There's a lot of different ways to be able to repurpose them.
Speaker 1:You alluded to this a little bit before, but how do you see container construction fitting into the broader future of urban development and affordable and special use buildings? What's the future look like for containers?
Speaker 2:Oh, I hope it keeps growing. I mean, truly, there are so many containers just sitting around not being used, and I know that there are a few other companies like mine and a couple of them I got to meet at world of modular, which I was really excited because they've been doing this a little bit longer than than we have. You know, a shout out to to my counterparts and colleagues out there that have been really digging in longer than I have, because I do believe that there is a purpose for this long term. I think that why not use something that is truly not going to be used for anything else, since we have the technology, we have the knowledge to do that? So I do believe it will just continue to grow.
Speaker 2:The difficulty is, in my opinion, because you had asked this before there's a challenge that I fight all the time, and that's with the internet. There's a lot of misinformation, so people think I can just buy any old container and anything that I see and I can just repurpose it myself. You have skills because you have construction skills and you know what you're buying. That's fine, but we have actually had to fix multiple mistakes when that has happened, because it's still construction, and when it's done correctly. It takes a skill set to do it, and so I fight the Internet an awful lot.
Speaker 1:Don't we all? Last question, I'll let you go what advice would you give to container builders who are looking to break into the public sector?
Speaker 2:or civic projects Talk to each other. I would say the one thing I really loved most about World of Modular for me is the ability to meet people that are in the space, and so I do have people that call me from other parts of the country and ask questions, and I'm super open to that. I think sometimes people think, well, they're competitors. You know you really, you're what's your intellectual property, you're giving that away, but at the end of the day, there's so much need out there. Let's figure out these challenges together, and if something didn't't work, I want you to know that we tried this and this is what didn't work. Don't make the same mistake I did, you know. Try to you know. Make sure that we have a. We build this together so we build it correctly together and we can get good reputations by doing that. So that would be my advice well, thank you, uh.
Speaker 1:So much, rory. I really appreciate your time. It was great finally meeting you at World of Modular last month. I can't wait to see these projects conclude and your next projects after that.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much, john, appreciate you.
Speaker 1:My name is John McMullen and this has been another episode of Inside Modular, the podcast of commercial modular construction. Until next time.